Comments on: The Boss and the Other http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/the-boss-and-the-other/ Adventures of an expat in India Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:47:40 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Dave http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/the-boss-and-the-other/#comment-238 Dave Sun, 03 Aug 2008 02:40:23 +0000 http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-238 > Which are similar to where largely the western society used to be Very True Capitalism for all of its ills, drove a stake through the heart of feudalism in the west. The process began in the 14th century with the Black Death and took about six centuries to complete in the last corners of the west. It will likely be much faster (and more disorienting?) in India. I’m reminded of a passage from Barbara Tuchman’s ‘A Distant Mirror’. Rich, commoner (low caste) merchants – who were often wealthier than the nobles who lorded over them – were admonished by the church (which was always in league with the nobility) against what we in modern times would would call consumerism. They understood the threat to their position. Being a mixed brown/white family probably allows you to make observations that are veiled to us. > Which are similar to where largely the western society used to be

Very True

Capitalism for all of its ills, drove a stake through the heart of feudalism in the west. The process began in the 14th century with the Black Death and took about six centuries to complete in the last corners of the west. It will likely be much faster (and more disorienting?) in India. I’m reminded of a passage from Barbara Tuchman’s ‘A Distant Mirror’. Rich, commoner (low caste) merchants – who were often wealthier than the nobles who lorded over them – were admonished by the church (which was always in league with the nobility) against what we in modern times would would call consumerism. They understood the threat to their position.

Being a mixed brown/white family probably allows you to make observations that are veiled to us.

]]> By: Dugi. http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/the-boss-and-the-other/#comment-231 Dugi. Sat, 02 Aug 2008 16:12:43 +0000 http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-231 I see it as Britian in the 18th C and earlier..when class and status reinged and people were respected for "old money" and try to build their status with "new money" etc...a society where arranged marriaged prevailed and finding the right match depended on your 'family background' 'connections' 'profession' and 'wealth'...so classism prevailed. Then came capitalism and democracy etc and turned things around.... India though has only been a democracy for little over 50 years so a couple of generations...hence the way people treat each other is still ingrained largely in the old ways. Which are similar to where largely the western society used to be. Anyway, I've experienced the same thing as u mention (when we were humanitarian workers post tsunami for a year in Sri lanka)with taking our driver with us to eat at hotels and the waiters and hotel manages would treat them suspiciously and rudely. I even had a hotel manger yell at my driver as he sat at our table saying it was rude of him to do so when i had asked him to anyway. It didn;t matter what I said...I'm brown...while my husband is a white man. In some ways Indians/SL treat white people with such racism and dis-respect...generalising that they are largely immoral and lack values and "there is no way my child would ever marry a white person" kinda sentiments....but then at other times white people are respected like Gods... for the money? the status? ...it's hard to understand this completely. I see it as Britian in the 18th C and earlier..when class and status reinged and people were respected for “old money” and try to build their status with “new money” etc…a society where arranged marriaged prevailed and finding the right match depended on your ‘family background’ ‘connections’ ‘profession’ and ‘wealth’…so classism prevailed. Then came capitalism and democracy etc and turned things around….
India though has only been a democracy for little over 50 years so a couple of generations…hence the way people treat each other is still ingrained largely in the old ways. Which are similar to where largely the western society used to be.
Anyway, I’ve experienced the same thing as u mention (when we were humanitarian workers post tsunami for a year in Sri lanka)with taking our driver with us to eat at hotels and the waiters and hotel manages would treat them suspiciously and rudely. I even had a hotel manger yell at my driver as he sat at our table saying it was rude of him to do so when i had asked him to anyway. It didn;t matter what I said…I’m brown…while my husband is a white man.
In some ways Indians/SL treat white people with such racism and dis-respect…generalising that they are largely immoral and lack values and “there is no way my child would ever marry a white person” kinda sentiments….but then at other times white people are respected like Gods… for the money? the status? …it’s hard to understand this completely.

]]> By: Mridula http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/the-boss-and-the-other/#comment-229 Mridula Sat, 02 Aug 2008 06:29:16 +0000 http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-229 But that also depends on how many people are there on lunch or dinner. Once only my nephew and I were on a trip to Nainital and stopped for dinner. We invited the driver of the hotel provided car for breakfast with us and there were no issues as there were just three of us. But I agree with what you say in general and had it been a mixed group the situation could have been awkward. But that also depends on how many people are there on lunch or dinner. Once only my nephew and I were on a trip to Nainital and stopped for dinner. We invited the driver of the hotel provided car for breakfast with us and there were no issues as there were just three of us.

But I agree with what you say in general and had it been a mixed group the situation could have been awkward.

]]> By: Dave http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/the-boss-and-the-other/#comment-228 Dave Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:06:57 +0000 http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-228 You might be right about this among the super rich. The thing is that the average westerner simply has no experience having household help. Until the end of the 19th century, it was typical for middle class western families to have a butler/maid/etc. This died out as industrialization and development drove up the cost of labor to the point where there was no longer a class of poor people who could be paid for these jobs. There is an <a href="http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=10281275" rel="nofollow">interesting article</a> from last December’s Economist about how the kitchen has changed in western household, originally being a not so nice place where only servants ventured, to a focal point for the family as it is now. Because for the past century or more, only the super rich have had household help, most people – even the well to do – have no experience with “help”. The plumber, cable man, heating/AC tech, etc. who come to the house to do work are fellow members of the middle class; peers. The plumber who visits the doctor’s house to visit a leaky faucet; his children go to school with the doctor’s kids and they are fellow members of the parent teacher association. The only thing resembling maids in the west any more are au pars and that is considerably different than a maid. They do service work, babysitting, cleaning, cooking, etc., but they are a cultural exchange – a girl experiencing the world and living in a foreign country for a year - and it would be strange if they did not eat with the family. A couple more decades of 9% growth will also likely eliminate the maid as an institution in India as it follows the same track as the west. You might be right about this among the super rich. The thing is that the average westerner simply has no experience having household help. Until the end of the 19th century, it was typical for middle class western families to have a butler/maid/etc. This died out as industrialization and development drove up the cost of labor to the point where there was no longer a class of poor people who could be paid for these jobs. There is an interesting article from last December’s Economist about how the kitchen has changed in western household, originally being a not so nice place where only servants ventured, to a focal point for the family as it is now.

Because for the past century or more, only the super rich have had household help, most people – even the well to do – have no experience with “help”. The plumber, cable man, heating/AC tech, etc. who come to the house to do work are fellow members of the middle class; peers. The plumber who visits the doctor’s house to visit a leaky faucet; his children go to school with the doctor’s kids and they are fellow members of the parent teacher association.

The only thing resembling maids in the west any more are au pars and that is considerably different than a maid. They do service work, babysitting, cleaning, cooking, etc., but they are a cultural exchange – a girl experiencing the world and living in a foreign country for a year – and it would be strange if they did not eat with the family.

A couple more decades of 9% growth will also likely eliminate the maid as an institution in India as it follows the same track as the west.

]]> By: Quirky Indian http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/2008/08/01/the-boss-and-the-other/#comment-227 Quirky Indian Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:28:34 +0000 http://ayearinindia.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-227 Actually Dave, while I completely buy your point about respect and dignity, the Wrenzo instance in some ways is not that far removed from the West - would it be considered normal, for instance, for families in the US to invite their household help - maids/butlers/chauffeurs, depending on the family - to sit at the table during a formal sit-down dinner at home? Or to take them along to a meal at a restaurant with the rest of the family? Wouldn't a chauffeur in uniform, or a maid in an apron, for instance, be told to use the service entrance if either walked up to a fine-dining kind of place? The point being - in their own ways, other countries, too, have the same issues. Cheers, Quirky Indian http://quirkyindian.wordpress.com Actually Dave, while I completely buy your point about respect and dignity, the Wrenzo instance in some ways is not that far removed from the West – would it be considered normal, for instance, for families in the US to invite their household help – maids/butlers/chauffeurs, depending on the family – to sit at the table during a formal sit-down dinner at home? Or to take them along to a meal at a restaurant with the rest of the family? Wouldn’t a chauffeur in uniform, or a maid in an apron, for instance, be told to use the service entrance if either walked up to a fine-dining kind of place?
The point being – in their own ways, other countries, too, have the same issues.

Cheers,
Quirky Indian
http://quirkyindian.wordpress.com

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